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Saturday, November 29, 2014

40.2.3 Establishing the Durnfords in England - from the invasions and different lineage possibilities

PREVIOUS RESEARCH


Other researchers have compiled a comprehensive website for information regarding the Durnford families.

 There is a comprehensive family website:   www.durnfordfamily.com

The descendants are located primarily in the UK, Canada and US, with only a handful in Australia.

Within the website, are two distinct references, one called the Military Durnfords, (our line) and the other line which was established in Newfoundland by Samual Durnford, who travelled from Poole, Plymouth.  There are many in Canada and the US from the Military Durnfords.



Where did these ancestors come froum?



Pervensey Castle where William and the troops landed, nothing much is left anymore, it was raining when we went, the pigeons inhabited the gallows, and this aerial shot from wikipedia is much better than my photos  Bit hard to imagine landing 7000 men, all the horses, the ships and the supplies, 1000 years ago!


One theory is that it came from a Knight travelling with King William and the other that it is a very old Anglo Saxon family.

Looking at the two prospects, there doesn't seem to be anyone in the published list of Knights who traveled from France with King William, from any place in France called Derneford nor with a resemblance of that name.

In those times people were known as William de Normandy, or Hugh de Averenges, meaning the first name, de - "of" -place name.

Prior to leaving France the Knights and William attended a church service to wish them well, from research it is the records of this service which provides the list of his supporters.



King William rewarded his knights with massive amounts of land throughout the length and breadth of the country.  They became the nobility of the day, as many of our ancestors were, and due to their position within the regal courts and churches, there is plenty of evidence which substantiates their lives after the invasion.




While that list provides a list of names, of the probable Knights, it may not be fully correct in its source.  While tracing our Ancestors footsteps we stumbled upon an amazing museum where a lot of research had been done on the different people the elderly curator insisted that I photocopy his records and then directed me to other research


Before learning he was a great grandfather, and doing our trip, I never realised just how much influence William had .
I am sure we never learnt that at school, just the boring old King Henry V for me!  



The Knights and their barony

William the Conqueror established his favoured followers as barons by enfeoffing them as tenants-in-chief with great fiefdoms to be held per baroniam, a largely standard feudal contract of tenure, common to all his barons.

Such barons were not necessarily always from the greater Norman nobles, but were selected often on account of their personal abilities and usefulness. Thus for example Turstin FitzRolf, the relatively humble and obscure knight who had stepped in at the last minute to accept the position of Duke William's standard-bearer at the Battle of Hastings, was granted a barony which comprised well over twenty manors.

Lands forming a barony were often located in several different counties, not necessarily adjoining. The name of such a barony is generally deemed to be the name of the chief manor within it, known as the Caput, Latin for "head", generally assumed to have been the seat or chief residence of the first baron. So, for instance, the barony of Turstin FitzRolf became known as the barony of North Cadbury, Somerset.

The exact date of creation of most feudal baronies cannot be determined, as their founding charters have been lost. Many of them are first recorded in the Domesday Book survey of 1086.

As many of the family came from Somerset and Dorset areas, the following list from the

Curry Malet   Somerset                             Roger de Courcelles
Beverstone   Gloucestershire                   Robert de Gurney
Erlestoke        Wiltshire                             Roger I de Mandevill
Stowey            Somerset                             Alfred de Hispania

North Cadbury    Somerset                          Turstin FitzRolf      in    1086
Winterbourne      St Martin Dorset             widow of Hugh FitzGrip
Chitterne             Wiltshire                          Edward of Salisbury      1086
 Hastings             Sussex                              William, Count of Eu     1086

The one of interest is Turstin Fitz Rolf  (son of Rolf)

Turstin FitzRolf was a Norman magnate, one of the few proven Companions of William the Conqueror who fought at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. As his name indicates, he was the son of (fils de) a certain Rolf, synonymous with Rou (Norman-French popular form) and Rollo (Latinization). 
His first name appears as Tosteins, Thurstan and other variants.  He appears to have originated in Bec-de-Mortagne, Pays-de-Caux, Normandy, according to the Roman de Rou poem written by Wace in about 1170. 

He was recorded in the Domesday Book of 1086 as holding as a sub-tenant, the castle of Caerleon, at the southern end of the English frontier with unconquered Wales. 

He also appears to have been the first holder of the extensive Barony of North Cadbury, Somerset, which included several manors in nearby counties. He is chiefly remembered as the standard bearer of William the Conqueror at Hastings, as recorded by the reliable 12th-century chronicler Orderic Vitalis

For his loyalty, William gave him 77 manors!

Held from the King

Gloucestershire
  • Alvington, Gloucestershire (Alwintune)
  • Ampney Crucis, Gloucestershire (Omenel). There were 2 other holdings here, “Baldwin” from the King and Humphrey the Chamberlain.
  • Fretherne, Gloucestershire (Fridorne)
  • Hillesley, Gloucestershire (Hildeslei). Sub-enfeoffed to Bernard (Pancevolt?)
  • King's Stanley, Gloucestershire (Stantone). Tovi also held a manor here.
  • Oakley, Gloucestershire (Achelie). There were 3 manors here, thought to have lain to the immediate west of Cirencester, by Coates. Turstin's is thought to have been Oakley Wood.
  • Tortworth, Gloucestershire (Torteword)
Somerset
  • Blackford, Somerset (near Wincanton) (Blacheford/Blachafort). There were 2 manors here, one held by Glastonbury Abbey, sub-enfeoffed to “Alwaker”, the other held by Turstin sub-enfeoffed to “Alfward”.
  • Little Keyford, Somerset (Caivel/Chaivert/Kaivert). 2 manors, one held by Geoffrey de Montbray, Bishop of Coutances, sub-enfeoffed to “Nigel”, the other held by Turstin, sub-enfeoffed to “Norman”.
  • Maperton, Somerset (Malpertone/Malperettona). Sub-enfeoffed to “Geoffrey”.
  • North Cadbury, Somerset (Cadeberie/beria). The later caput of the eponymous barony which retained many of Turstin's landholdings.
  • Pitcombe, Somerset (near present Godminster Farm) (Pidecome/coma)
  • South Cadbury, Somerset (Sudcadeberie/Sutcadaberia/deberia). Sub-enfeoffed to Bernard Pancevolt “a clerk and an Englishman”. Thought to be the site of Camelot Castle.
  • Syndercombe, Somerset (now flooded by Clatworthy Reservoir) (Sindercome)
  • Woolston, Somerset (in South Cadbury) (Ufetone/tona/tuna). There were 2 holdings here: Robert, Count of Mortain, 1st Earl of Cornwall, held one part, sub-enfeoffed to “Drogo”, the 2nd part was held by Turstin FitzRolf, seb-enfeoffed to “Leofgeat”. The connection to Robert Mortain should not be taken as evidence of any identity of Turstin with Turstin Sheriff of Cornwall, as Robert held many hundred manors throughout the kingdom.
Berkshire
  • Sparsholt, Berkshire (now Oxon.)
  • Coleshill, Berkshire. (now Oxon.)Turstin held 1 of 5 manors here.
  • Childrey, Berkshire (now Oxon.) (“Celrea”). Turstin held 1 of 3 manors here, sub-enfeoffed to Roger.
  • Upton, Berkshire (now Oxon.). (“Optone”)
Buckinghamshire
  • Little Kimble, Buckinghamshire (“Kemble Parva”). Sub-enfeoffed to Albert.
  • Hardwick, Buckinghamshire (“Harduic”). 1 of 3 manors held by Turstin, others held by Robert of Mortain and Miles Crispin, both sub-enfeoffed.
Dorset
  • Gillingham, Dorset (“Gelingeham”) Turstin held 1 manor of 5 or 6, subenfeoffed to Bernard (Pancevolt?)
  • Allington, Dorset (“Adelingtone”)
  • Nyland, Dorset (“Iland”/”Inlande”) 1 of 2 manors held by Turstin, the other by Robert of Mortain.
  • Stoke Wallis, Dorset (“Stoche”) 1 of 2 manoprs held by Turstin, sub-enfeoffed to Ranulf.
Herefordshire
  • Little Marcle, Herefordshire (“Merchelai”). 1 of 2 manors held by Turstin, sub-enfeoffed to another “Turstin”. The other manor was held by Roger de Lacy.
Hampshire
  • Newton Valence, Hampshire (“Newentone”)

Held from Bishop of Worcester

Gloucestershire
  • Aust, Gloucestershire (Austreclive). 5 hides.
  • Gotherington, Gloucestershire (Godrinton).

Held from Abbot of Westminster

Glos./Worcs.
  • Hasfield, Gloucestershire (Hasfelde). 1 ½ hides.
  • Eckington, Worcestershire (“Aichintune”) 1 of 3 manors held by Turstin.

Held from Walter Giffard

Walter Giffard, 1st Earl of Buckingham(died 1102) was a Norman magnate and fellow proven Companion of William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The caput of his feudal honour was at Crendon, Buckinghamshire.

  • Great Missenden, Buckinghamshire
Must have had a busy time trying to keep up with all his tenants!



The Barony of Wiltshire



Clearly Turstin had "kindred" and "heirs" as referred to by Wace, yet these may have been in Normandy only, since no record of any familial inheritance exists for his English holdings. Turstin is said by some sources to have had a son named Ralph (FitzTurstin) who went on crusade to the Holy Land, where he died.

 Most of Turstin's lands, which later constituted a feudal barony, did not pass to his son, if indeed such existed, but to another apparently unrelated Norman magnate Wynebald de Ballon, who served for a time as seneschal of Caerleon Castle, whilst his elder brother Hamelin de Ballon had founded Abergavenny Castle 15 miles higher up the River Usk, and founded a barony seated at Much Marcle, i.e. next to, and possibly subsuming, Turstin's own manor of Little Marcle.

Wynebald also inherited, almost intact, the lands comprising Turstin's fief, which is known collectively as the barony of North Cadbury. The reason for this transfer is not clear, whether by death or by his having fallen out of royal favour.

It is possible that Turstin was a supporter of Duke Robert of Normandy, the Conqueror's eldest son who tried to wrest the kingdom of England from William Rufus, his younger brother who had had himself crowned very rapidly at Westminster following the Conqueror's death.

Turstin would therefore have found himself on the losing side, and as is known to have happened to others in that situation, would have forfeited his lands. It is interesting to note that such banishment is known to have been the fate of Turstin's other 2 neighbours at Oakley in Gloucestershire, Gislebert FitzTurold and Roger de Lacy, both banished from the kingdom in 1088.

The name Cadbury means Cada's fort and refers to Cadbury Castle.

The parish was part of the hundred of Catsash.

Feudal barony of North Cadbury

In the Domesday Book of 1086 the manor is recorded as held as part of the extensive fiefdom of Turstin FitzRolf, the supposed standard-bearer to William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings in 1066.

The lands held by Turstin were subsequently proved to have been held under the feudal tenure per baroniam, making the holder a feudal baron. The caput of this barony is stated by Professor Ivor Sanders (1960) to have been North Cadbury, although Turstin's central area of operation seems to have been around Caerleon Castle on the English border with Glamorgan, South Wales. 

Turstin seems to have been banished in about 1088, possibly having opposed King William II of England in his struggle for the English crown with his elder brother Robert Curthose, Duke of Normandy. The fiefdom then passed to Wynebald de Ballon, newly arrived with his brother Hamelin de Ballon from Maine, France.

 Wynebald was a close associate of King William Rufus, and probably received Turstin's fiefdom as a reward for services unknown. Wynebald's centre of operation was at Caerleon Castle, on the River Usk, higher up which was founder Abergavenny Castle by his brother Hamelin. Even further up the river Usk was situated the caput of the great Marcher Lordship of Bernard de Newmarch at Brecon. Wynebald de Ballon's 2 sons died without issue and his heir to the barony became his daughter Mabilia, the wife of a certain "Henry de Newmarch".

 No evidence has survived as to the ancestry of Henry de Newmarch, but circumstantial evidence suggests that he was descended from Bernard de Newmarch, Marcher Lord of Brecon, by a first marriage. Bernard's sole heiress was certainly his only daughter by his last marriage to Sibila. Bernard is said to have had children by a first marriage, as mention of them is made in a charter to the monks of Brecon, in which he speaks of sons and daughters, especially devising the lands of Costinio for the welfare of the soul of his son Philip.

The barony of Wynebald, which can at this stage in its history be termed the "barony of North Cadbury", descended into the family of his son-in-law Henry de Newmarch (d.1198). Henry had 2 sons, Henry (or possibly William) the eldest who died without issue in 1204, and James (d.1216) who according to Wiffen (1883)

He married Maud, later the wife of Otto FitzWilliam. James had no son but left 2 co-heiresses, Isabel and Hawise, who being heirs of a tenant-in-chief became wards of the king. 

The king (either King John just before his death in 1216, or more likely the council of his infant son King Henry III (1216–1272)) granted the wardship, which included the marriage also, of Isabel the elder daughter to John Russell (d.1224) of Kingston Russell, Dorset. 

Russell had been a household knight of Kings Richard I (1189–1199) and of his brother King John (1199–1216) and of the latter's infant son Henry III, the latter whom he also later served as household steward. The wardship of Hawise the younger the king granted to John de Boterel, confirmed to the latter by Henry III in 1218, per the Close Rolls. 

Russell was by then elderly and already married with a family so he married-off Isabel to his eldest surviving son Ralph Russell, which action raised Ralph to the status of a feudal baron and gave him possession of a moiety of the lands comprising the barony of North Cadbury. 

John de Boterel was clearly then unmarried and perhaps younger for he exercised his grant by marrying Hawise himself; however he was not to live much longer and following his death without issue Hawise married secondly in about 1230 Nicholas de Moels.

 The descendants of both daughters retained all or some of the North Cadbury baronial lands they inherited until the 16th. c., when the Russell moiety was then held by the Denys family of Siston, Gloucestershire.

On the death of Thomas Russell in 1431, the 21 year old son of Maurice Russell, knight (d.1416) of Dyrham, Gloucestershire, the heirs to the Russell lands became Thomas's elder half-sisters Margaret, whose first husband had been Gilbert Denys, knight (d.1422), upon the issue of which marriage her inheritance had been settled, and Isabel, then wife of Stephen Hatfield, her 4th husband.

The de Moels share passed successively by marriage to the Barons Botreaux (1337), (who may by coincidence have been from the same family as Hawise's first husband John de Botrel), Barons Hungerford (1462) and the Barons Hastings in 1468.







There are other researchers who have applied a lineage from Normandy:

Guilliame de Derneford             1040    d   1088
Guilliame de Derneford             1062    d   1115
Guilliame de Derneford             1090    d   1148
Recu de Derneford                     1135    d   1170
Guilliame de Derneford             1150    d   1217   Damietta Egypt as part of the 5th Crusades
Recu de Derneford                     1190    d   1256   Cromwell Nottinghamshire



Some research on the Crusades

 The Fifth Crusade (1213–1221) was an attempt by Catholic Europeans to reacquire Jerusalem and the rest of the Holy Land by first conquering the powerful Ayyubid state in Egypt.

Pope Innocent III and his successor Pope Honorius III organized crusading armies led by King Andrew II of Hungary and Duke Leopold VI of Austria, and a foray against Jerusalem ultimately left the city in Muslim hands. Later in 1218, a German army led by Oliver of Cologne, and a mixed army of Dutch, Flemish and Frisian soldiers led by William I, Count of Holland joined the crusade.

 In order to attack Damietta in Egypt, they allied in Anatolia with the Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm which attacked the Ayyubids in Syria in an attempt to free the Crusaders from fighting on two fronts.

After occupying the port of Damietta, the Crusaders marched south towards Cairo in July 1221, but were turned back after their dwindling supplies led to a forced retreat. A nighttime attack by Sultan Al-Kamil resulted in a great number of crusader losses, and eventually in the surrender of the army. Al-Kamil agreed to an eight-year peace agreement with Europe


The closest village or area in Normandy that can be found to have a deritive of Dunford is

Dénestanville is a commune in the Seine-Maritime department in the Haute-Normandie region in north-western France. Danestanvilla 1051, Donestanville 1088, Dunestanvilla 1142.

Dunstan's farm, name of an Anglo-Saxon farmer who came from danelaw with the danes, probably in the 10th century, to settle in Normandy. Seat of the family de Dunstanville. See Reginald de Dunstanville. 

Reginald de Dunstanville (Reginald FitzRoy, Rainald), Earl of Cornwall (French: Renaud de Donstanville or de Dénestanville) (c. 1110, Dunstanville, Kent, England – 1 July 1175, Chertsey, Surrey, England), High Sheriff of Devon, Earl of Cornwall, was an illegitimate son of Henry I of England and Lady Sybilla Corbet.

Reginald had been invested with the Earldom of Cornwall by King Stephen of England, but having afterwards taken up the cause of the Empress Matilda, his sister, he forfeited his lands and honours. Around 1173 he granted a charter to his free bugesses of Triueru, and he addressed his meetings at Truro to All men both Cornish and English suggesting a continuing  differentiation. He served, according to some accounts, as High Sheriff of Devon from 1173-1174.
  • He was buried in Reading Abbey.

He married Mabel FitzRichard, daughter of William FitzRichard (who held a number of fiefs in Cornwall) and had the following children:


Nicholas de Dunstanville (1136–1175).

Hawyse (or Denise) de Dunstanville (1138–21 April 1162). 
                                                 Married Richard de Redvers, 2nd Earl of Devon (Richard de Reviers).

Maud FitzRoy de Dunstanville of Cornwall (b. 1143, Dunstanville, Kent, England). 
                                                  Married Sir Robert de Beaumont, Count of Meulan
Henry FitzCount,                    Sheriff of Cornwall, Earl of Cornwall (d. 1222).
William FitzCount.
Ursula de Dunstanville             (b. 1145). Married Walter de Dunstanville Lord Castlecomb.
Sarah de Dunstanville              (b. 1147). Married Ademar V, viscount of Limoges.
Reginald de Dunstanville         (b. c. 1152).
Joan FitzRoy                            (b. c. 1150). Married Ralph de Valletort, Lord of Trematon.



He also had illegitimate children by Beatrice de Vaux (also known as de Valle), who was later married to William Brewer (justice).

And Dunstan was an Anglo Saxon farmer who went with the Danes to France

In the middle of the tenth century, the conquest of the Danelaw by West Saxon kings for the first time united England in a single kingdom. Kings from Æthelstan (924-939) onwards saw themselves as heirs of the Carolingian emperors, and the regulation of monasteries by a uniform Benedictine rule was designed to unite the kingdom ideologically and enhance royal prestige












    13 comments:

    1. been told by the British Genealogy that Two Brothers both Generals in the William 1st of Normandy for being so brave they were given Yorkshire and Lancashire to farm,which they did and today there is the Dunford Bridge,Dunford Castle and Dunford River ,still there ,and when Henry11 had trouble in Ireland he sent the same Dunford family to farm the land there.now i am looking for the Genealogy or family tree of these dunford.s please can you help

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      1. BIT MORE DID YOU KNOW DURNFORD WAS RELARED TO OLIVER CROMWELL PERHAPES WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM IRELAND AND TOLD THE DUNFORD FAMILY THAT HE HAS MORE LAND FOR THEM IN IRELAND AS HE SAID HE ALWAYS RESPECTED THE DUNFORD FAMILY IN YORKSHIRE AND LANCASHIRE. PERHAPES IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE RELATED JUST GO ON INTERNET SEARCH THOMAS DURNFORD WAS FAMILY

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      2. BIT MORE DID YOU KNOW DURNFORD WAS RELARED TO OLIVER CROMWELL PERHAPES WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM IRELAND AND TOLD THE DUNFORD FAMILY THAT HE HAS MORE LAND FOR THEM IN IRELAND AS HE SAID HE ALWAYS RESPECTED THE DUNFORD FAMILY IN YORKSHIRE AND LANCASHIRE. PERHAPES IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE RELATED JUST GO ON INTERNET SEARCH THOMAS DURNFORD WAS FAMILY

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    2. been told by the British Genealogy that Two Brothers both Generals in the William 1st of Normandy for being so brave they were given Yorkshire and Lancashire to farm,which they did and today there is the Dunford Bridge,Dunford Castle and Dunford River ,still there ,and when Henry11 had trouble in Ireland he sent the same Dunford family to farm the land there.now i am looking for the Genealogy or family tree of these dunford.s please can you help

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    3. Again in 1641 Oliver Cromwell was went to Ireland Dublin. Sent by King Charles 1 To Confiscate better Land Owned by the Murphy Family giving them Tipperary.,Ballmun,and Cashel,Upon his Return to England He Informed his Loyal Friends the Dunford Family in Lancashire and Yorkshire there was more Farmland for them in Wexford Ireland and the Dunfords Gladly Accepted Cromwell Land Grant .This is in the English History Books.So it First Shows the Dunford Family Living in Lancashire and Yorkshire.Second it Shows that the King of England Knew about them King Charles 1.And it is Written DUNFORD

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    4. FEBRUARY 21 2016 IS QUITE RIGHT YOU CAN READ THIS HISTORY ON THE INTERNET WHENOLIVER CROMWELL CONFISCATING THE BETTER LAND OF THE MURPHYS AND GAVE IT TO THE DUNFORD FAMILY WHO TRAVELLED OVER WITH WILLIAM THE CONQUEROR IN 1066.AND WERE GIVEN LANCASHIRE AND YORKSHIRE AND THEY NAMED AND BUILT CASTLES DUNFORD CASTLE,DUNFORD RIVER DUNFORD BRIDGE ITS ALL THERE TO SEE AND TO READ IN THE HISTORY BOOKS.SO ALL YOUR READERS ARE ASKING WHAT WERE THE DUNFORD FULL NAMES AND DATES OF BIRTH AND DEATH.AFTER ALL THEY WERE THERE FROM 1066 TO 1641. 575 YEARS LIVING AS EARLS LORDS TO OUR KINGS OF ENGLAND,

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      1. ANOTHER NAME THEY SAY HE WAS THE RICHEST LANDOWNER EVER DAMARELL DURNFORD 1620
        now what i cant make out we have dunford house dunford manor dunford village dunford town ,dunford road dunford church.we have the arguement with thomas dunford over ship money 1636 in charles 1 parliament,we have allthose dunfords over 50 familys onthe threes big ships called the white sails to america it givesall there names and were they bought there lands all named dunford,we have oliver cromwell giving more lands to farmin ireland 1650 all dunford-we have the census which came out in 1200 which states the richest landowner and farmer is john dunford from buckinghamshire,running up was to landowners in yorkshire thomas dunford and another john dunford.not durnford or derneford but dunford
        now they say durnford name is dunford .when did they change and if we know so much about the dunford family why have we not got a family tree,it seems they were in parliament from 1066 to 1700 there names pop up so there must be a large family off them so where is there family tree,

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    5. One more thing a History Teacher as informed me that when Henry the Second went over to Ireland to see the Viking king in 1174 He took two Brothers named Dunford NORMAN EARLS with him as Body guards as they were most Respected from Lancashire

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    6. whendidthev dunford family change its name derenford to dunford,as there are lots of places in lancashire and yorkshire named dunford dunford road dunford river,dunford village.dunford bridge,dunford castle,all were there after 1066,so if william did give it to the two dunford brothers a can see why this name was kept in yorkshire and lancashirer.so who did these brothers marry after 1966,who were there children,can history books tell us this,

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    7. knowbody seems to know when Dunford bridge was built when Dunford river was named.when Dunford farmhouse was built although it has been mentioned that the bridge was first built in 1066

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    8. knowbody seems to know when Dunford bridge was built when Dunford river was named.when Dunford farmhouse was built although it has been mentioned that the bridge was first built in 1066

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    9. just reading a Book which states the Surname of Dunford was a Location Name of Donville in Calvados Normandy France.Where a Man Lived was his Means of Identification,So his Christain Name Came First then his Birthplace, As "Someone De Dunford.Also William 1 Conqueror was also born in Calvados Normnady France.So he would have taken the Dunford with him on his Invasion of England.And after the Battle would have given them Land to Farm.So know we have Dunford Parish, Dunford Town, Dunford Bridge. Dunford River,Dunford Farmhouse.This must give us all a Clue.also it states Knowbody but a King could change the name of a River,So the Dunfords had to get Approval to change the River to Dunford River.Now it states they were given 4 Hides of Land.

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    10. I love this blog! I love reading about my family...I loved visiting Cothele House in Cornwall built with The Durnford money! (They treated us like royalty there, when they read my brother, David Durnford's name in the Visitors Book)!

      Col. Anthony Durnford, pictured above is my fifth cousin. There is a plaque in Rochester Cathedral commemorating his and his regiment's demise at The Battle of Isandhlwana in January 1879, in the Zulu War. When they knew I was born Caryll Durnford, they treated me like a celebrity. Ha Ha. Great work, thank you! Carrie King

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